Tuesday, July 08, 2008
Out of the Inbox - Response to Mishpacha article on Woodburne - Too little too late
Sent in by a Chaptzem reader
Hi, I just finished reading the Mishpacha Magazine's article on Woodburne and its history as a hang-out spot. The article relays some investigative information about problems of mingling from a couple of years back and how it was solved by assuring the town altogether. It further points out how nowadays the 'askanim' are more understanding of the situation and have found ways to provide 'kosher' outlets to would-be hanger-outers.
This situation reminded me of a very unfortunate situation where sadly the wrong techniques and interventions have been employed at the wrong time.
A patient is taken into the hospital complaining of pain in his side. The doctors immediately run the full gamut of tests and let the man know that he has cancer. But, they point out that with immediate treatment there is an eighty-five percent success rate for complete recovery. The man says that he does not believe that he has cancer and goes home. A month later he comes back with worse pain. The doctors again run tests and tell him that they now have to remove one of his kidneys because the cancer has spread. The man now begs and pleads with the doctors to run the treatment that they had previously suggested so that he can save his kidney. The doctors tell him that by now that he has finally come around to believe that he has cancer he has wasted too much time and his organ can no longer be saved. But, they tell him, with the removal of his kidney he has a ninety percent chance of living at least twenty more years. The man says that he wants to first think about it, maybe there is still a way to save the kidney.
The exact same is true with Woodburne. Moiray VeRaboisay, you have procrastinated so long with this Woodburbe situation that you have already lost the kidney. Please stop thinking about the kidney. Think hard and find a way to really address the problem before the whole body goes.
Those teenagers that used to hang-out in Woodburne are no longer there since you ran them out of town. They are now unfortunately renting apartments somewhere on a hidden dirt road and are getting high with other teenagers. It is way too late to make separate bowling for teens, they no longer care about bowling or your so-called self-righteous 'kosher' outlets. It is now time for you to get down on your knees and beg for forgiveness for branding them as outcasts. Only by accepting these teenagers for who they really are, without any condescending undertones, can we ever even hope to bring them back to Yiddishkeit.
Comments:
so whats your eitzeh , to leave them hanging out in woodburne , so other kids should learn that is the cool thing to do ?
Granted we have a problem , but that does not mean we dont try to help first the children who are not hanging out,
As for those who hang out, well lets first start with the parents. where is their responsobility ? how do they let thier teenage sons or daughters just hang out untill 3am or later ? where is thier achrayes ?
I woud also like to know, most of these kids have no jobs , so they hang out from bordem, get they jobs and they will find out they being a productive member of society feel much better then getting High
Granted we have a problem , but that does not mean we dont try to help first the children who are not hanging out,
As for those who hang out, well lets first start with the parents. where is their responsobility ? how do they let thier teenage sons or daughters just hang out untill 3am or later ? where is thier achrayes ?
I woud also like to know, most of these kids have no jobs , so they hang out from bordem, get they jobs and they will find out they being a productive member of society feel much better then getting High
Comment Credit ---This article posted by 
: July 08, 2008 9:59 AM
: July 08, 2008 9:59 AM
It is not too late for the "next generation" who will follow in these kids' footsteps without kosher alternatives. However, you are correct that the original "offenders" need to be reached as well. Just as important to do both. Yasher Koach.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 08, 2008 10:29 AM
: July 08, 2008 10:29 AM
YEA, BUT THE ARGUMENT IS: WHAT ABOUT 'FARDARBEN' ANDERE? MAYBE ITS BETTER FOR THEM TO SMOKE AWAY IN DEPRESSION AT A DEAD END STREET SOMEWHERE AND AT AGE 25-30 TO COME OUT FRESH AND GEZUNT, GET MARRIED AND MOVE ON AND NOBODY WILL EVEN KNOW HIS PAST, --- LOOK I SPEAK FOR MY SELF IN MY 20'S I HAD A JOB AND AN APARTMENT WHERE I DRANK, WATCHED, MOVIES, SMOKED, GOT EXTREMELY DEPPRESSED, UPS AND DOWN ALL THE TIME... BUT I WAS QUITE NO BODY REALY KNEW ABOUT ME. I WAS AFTER ALL ENJOYING IT, THAN I GOT MARRIED AND GOT A TRUE "HAPPY ENDING" WITH 2 KINDERLECH K.E.H. SO MY ADVISE TO ALL IS DO YOUR THING, BUT BE QUITE ABOUT IT DONT BRAG. SO YOUR COMEBACK WOULDNT BE HARD.
YOURS: THE GOLAM
YOURS: THE GOLAM
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 08, 2008 10:32 AM
: July 08, 2008 10:32 AM
your aill just full of bs the only ppl who really know whats goin on in woodburn r the ppl hangin out there so just shut up and leave em be!!!!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 08, 2008 11:11 AM
: July 08, 2008 11:11 AM
Forget about Woodburne, Come to Boro Park and see all the boys hanging out with girls on 13 Avenue, their talk is dirty, drive around all night in the cars, smoking drugs.
A few weeks ago FRUIDAY night, YES SHABBOS, boys were cought on the turnpike in their car with DRUGS.
How about helping and getting these kids the help they need and get them of the street?
A few weeks ago FRUIDAY night, YES SHABBOS, boys were cought on the turnpike in their car with DRUGS.
How about helping and getting these kids the help they need and get them of the street?
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 08, 2008 11:37 AM
: July 08, 2008 11:37 AM
I ask the age old question, where are the parents? Where are the rabbeim and teachers remind their students to guard themselves from evil inclinations and inappropriate relations?
Smoking, drinking, mingling with opposite sex in your parents' basement, and going out on Shabbat unfortunately happens in the City or in the Catskills - whether you ban our youth from hanging out in Woodbourne or on 13th Ave. When I was this age in the late 1980's/early 1990's, the same things were happeneing. But the participants were mostly from the homes where the parents did not pay attention to what their kids were up to.
I'm not saying you have have to lock up your children, but if you do your job of being a parent this should be rare vs. common. Teach your kids what is appropriate behavior when they are young, and the odds are in your favor you will have great children.
Smoking, drinking, mingling with opposite sex in your parents' basement, and going out on Shabbat unfortunately happens in the City or in the Catskills - whether you ban our youth from hanging out in Woodbourne or on 13th Ave. When I was this age in the late 1980's/early 1990's, the same things were happeneing. But the participants were mostly from the homes where the parents did not pay attention to what their kids were up to.
I'm not saying you have have to lock up your children, but if you do your job of being a parent this should be rare vs. common. Teach your kids what is appropriate behavior when they are young, and the odds are in your favor you will have great children.
I was one of these boro park boys who smoke drank and ..... and with time and help from family I came back ( also through meeting a shliach chabad where is was floating around ) I am now working and back in the hood...
Avrohom
Avrohom
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 08, 2008 2:08 PM
: July 08, 2008 2:08 PM
First: I commend Chaptzem for writing something with "sense".
I didn't read the Mishpacha article yet, but being a woodbourne resident, I very well know the history. The letter writer clearly has a great point. We really should try to bring these guys back. However, the young ones are just not interested yet. They need jobs. Solid full time jobs, and at a young age. The stigma of going to work for a, say, 16-17 year old is great for the family, or child for that matter. It was a good idea to chase the guys out of Woodnourne for the sake of the next age. If these kids need to be reached, you don't have to find them in their apartments it can be at other times too.
The question is not "where are the parents?" or "where is their Rebbe?" They don't have one. They never listened to them anyway. For if they did listen they wouldn't be in this situation.
The real problam is: We need much more volunteers to work in kiruv. Yes bringing back our own, maintainig our own ranks can also be called Kiruv, and we need help.
For all of those post-drop-outs that returned: Help your brothers and sisters realize the truth. You understand them the best. You know what they went thru, are going thru, and what it takes to come back. Please help them out! May the zechus of helping them come back, be a kapara for the aveirus you have commited yourself in those trying times. For regular volunteers that help, the zechus will be, to protect your kids from following in that dark path.
I didn't read the Mishpacha article yet, but being a woodbourne resident, I very well know the history. The letter writer clearly has a great point. We really should try to bring these guys back. However, the young ones are just not interested yet. They need jobs. Solid full time jobs, and at a young age. The stigma of going to work for a, say, 16-17 year old is great for the family, or child for that matter. It was a good idea to chase the guys out of Woodnourne for the sake of the next age. If these kids need to be reached, you don't have to find them in their apartments it can be at other times too.
The question is not "where are the parents?" or "where is their Rebbe?" They don't have one. They never listened to them anyway. For if they did listen they wouldn't be in this situation.
The real problam is: We need much more volunteers to work in kiruv. Yes bringing back our own, maintainig our own ranks can also be called Kiruv, and we need help.
For all of those post-drop-outs that returned: Help your brothers and sisters realize the truth. You understand them the best. You know what they went thru, are going thru, and what it takes to come back. Please help them out! May the zechus of helping them come back, be a kapara for the aveirus you have commited yourself in those trying times. For regular volunteers that help, the zechus will be, to protect your kids from following in that dark path.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 08, 2008 2:52 PM
: July 08, 2008 2:52 PM
Avrohom- you said the magic word. Your family (with chabad's help too)helped you get back on track. Family support and guidance and education are important to this issue.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 08, 2008 3:01 PM
: July 08, 2008 3:01 PM
This is so classic its funny I wrote about this issue many a time. In fact Woodbourne sucks nowadays- there is no drugs or drinking or sex- it has all moved to private houses. It used to be loads of fun watching the action.
Of course as you have said- by banning an area it encourages private gatherings without supervision- at least back in the day you had people walking around and it was public.
Now just go down the block to where all the Niveh guys who work at Dougies live if you want to see 10 times worse things than what went on in the 90s
Of course as you have said- by banning an area it encourages private gatherings without supervision- at least back in the day you had people walking around and it was public.
Now just go down the block to where all the Niveh guys who work at Dougies live if you want to see 10 times worse things than what went on in the 90s
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 08, 2008 4:06 PM
: July 08, 2008 4:06 PM
The Rabbis did this. Banning Woddburne, and now they want to know why all this kids are in private houses having sex and getting high.
They dont understand kids need an outlet
They dont understand kids need an outlet
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 08, 2008 5:15 PM
: July 08, 2008 5:15 PM
Ok evryone blame it on someone else!! Well blame yourself I know I said it out in a loud way but yes blame yourself support the people that try to help these guys and girls! Not the rosh yeshivos and rabbi's that are all full of it! And don't care for others but for they're mosed or yeshiva! Yes there are people trying to help theese kids but instead of supporting them you just look to criticize them and push them out of your way try to make them stop and get a bad feeling on what they are doing!! Yes they need jobs and they need hang out places I'm not saying they should hang out in woodburne or 13ave but support people that open a kolel or whatever for those casess and may hashem help you all with a lot of nachas from your children and happy years!!!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 09, 2008 3:07 AM
: July 09, 2008 3:07 AM
WOW!! , drugs , booze and sex.
anybody have addresses?
anybody have addresses?
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 09, 2008 5:44 AM
: July 09, 2008 5:44 AM
Yes I agree this community needs to wake up and start doing kiruv within our community and put a warmth and love into yiddishkeit. All the restrictions and no outlets to do anything that is kosher is not available for them. Lets work on being nice to one another and do the most we can before it is too late
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 09, 2008 7:24 AM
: July 09, 2008 7:24 AM
Those of you who blame the parents obviously never raised any teenagers yet. As loving and warm and functional a family can be, there will always be those who defy authority, who want to give no accountabilily to anyone. There were always REBELS and there will always be rebels. Pray hard that you are never in that situation!!
Only tefillos will save our generation from the ills that stare us in the face.
To those of you who recommend counseling- TRY to get a rebellious teenager to AGREE to getting therapy. TRY to get a rebellious teenager to get a job!! If C"V they are so downhill that they are into drugs, alcohol and worse, they are not in any frame of mind for any commitments.
May Ha-Shem help us all see nachas from all our children and future generations.
Only tefillos will save our generation from the ills that stare us in the face.
To those of you who recommend counseling- TRY to get a rebellious teenager to AGREE to getting therapy. TRY to get a rebellious teenager to get a job!! If C"V they are so downhill that they are into drugs, alcohol and worse, they are not in any frame of mind for any commitments.
May Ha-Shem help us all see nachas from all our children and future generations.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 09, 2008 10:39 AM
: July 09, 2008 10:39 AM
Sounds to me like waiting was the right thing to do. His prognosis went from 85 to 90 percent.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 09, 2008 1:52 PM
: July 09, 2008 1:52 PM
Hesh,
How do you know what the boys from Neveh are doing in there house? At least they have jobs and are in woodbourne because they are working there. They are at least trying to do the right thing and not just bumming around on the streets!
How do you know what the boys from Neveh are doing in there house? At least they have jobs and are in woodbourne because they are working there. They are at least trying to do the right thing and not just bumming around on the streets!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 09, 2008 2:51 PM
: July 09, 2008 2:51 PM
Dear Chaptzem & Chaptzem Readers,
You have no idea how much I love this website. Anytime im having a bad day at work, I come on and see everybody's stupid ranting. Some of the comments are genuinely funny, written by funny people with the intention of humor (i.e. every comment in the article from April 22nd 'Lady Fingers no longer available for Pesach'. It also makes me laugh so hard that there are meshuganahs out there that actually think like this.
I thank hashem every day that I grew up in a normal family that taught me true yiddeshe values, I'm only 25 years old, but I am a father of 1 with another on the way, and whether I am modern or chasidishe it doesn't matter. How I grew up is where my value system comes from.
On April 10th there is an "out of the inbox" titled Medicating Bums, you should read the things that people wrote on there, its disgusting the way some people feel and act.
There is a comment there from anonymous @ 3:40pm, that a 50 year old father of a teenager who went off the derech and all the things he went through. It had so many positive comments on it from fathers and young people alike.
Because it was something that needed to be said, and apparently a lot of people agreed.
What im trying to say is that it seems like everybody on Chaptzem thinks that the 'OTHER' sect is the one with problems. Those crazy Chasidim and there violent ways, or, the pritzusdik modern orthodox and their short skirts. These are not problems of that sect, these are problems of parents not teaching their children right from wrong, and parents that aren't teaching from example. You can't do it when they're teenagers, by that point you can only salvage what's left, you must start when they are babies.
There are 2 types of fathers.
One, talks thru Shul, joking around. And he consistently tells his young son to stop talking & playing, but to daven instead.
The other father davens in Shul and makes sure to act like a mentsch, and while he would rather his young son to be sitting quietly and davening with him, he understands a boy's attention span, and doesn't yell at him for playing.
Those 2 children will grow up very differently.
Child (A) will have the mindset of, look at my abba, he gets to talk in shul, while I have to daven. I can't wait to grow up, so that I can talk in shul.
Child (B) will have the mindset of, I can play around now, but when I get older I have to be more respectful.
Which father will you be?
You have no idea how much I love this website. Anytime im having a bad day at work, I come on and see everybody's stupid ranting. Some of the comments are genuinely funny, written by funny people with the intention of humor (i.e. every comment in the article from April 22nd 'Lady Fingers no longer available for Pesach'. It also makes me laugh so hard that there are meshuganahs out there that actually think like this.
I thank hashem every day that I grew up in a normal family that taught me true yiddeshe values, I'm only 25 years old, but I am a father of 1 with another on the way, and whether I am modern or chasidishe it doesn't matter. How I grew up is where my value system comes from.
On April 10th there is an "out of the inbox" titled Medicating Bums, you should read the things that people wrote on there, its disgusting the way some people feel and act.
There is a comment there from anonymous @ 3:40pm, that a 50 year old father of a teenager who went off the derech and all the things he went through. It had so many positive comments on it from fathers and young people alike.
Because it was something that needed to be said, and apparently a lot of people agreed.
What im trying to say is that it seems like everybody on Chaptzem thinks that the 'OTHER' sect is the one with problems. Those crazy Chasidim and there violent ways, or, the pritzusdik modern orthodox and their short skirts. These are not problems of that sect, these are problems of parents not teaching their children right from wrong, and parents that aren't teaching from example. You can't do it when they're teenagers, by that point you can only salvage what's left, you must start when they are babies.
There are 2 types of fathers.
One, talks thru Shul, joking around. And he consistently tells his young son to stop talking & playing, but to daven instead.
The other father davens in Shul and makes sure to act like a mentsch, and while he would rather his young son to be sitting quietly and davening with him, he understands a boy's attention span, and doesn't yell at him for playing.
Those 2 children will grow up very differently.
Child (A) will have the mindset of, look at my abba, he gets to talk in shul, while I have to daven. I can't wait to grow up, so that I can talk in shul.
Child (B) will have the mindset of, I can play around now, but when I get older I have to be more respectful.
Which father will you be?
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 09, 2008 3:03 PM
: July 09, 2008 3:03 PM
Remember avrohom had yishmooel and Yitzchok had esau. If Avrohom and Yitzchok were not able to prevent this what chances do we have. Can'rt blame the parents.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 09, 2008 4:55 PM
: July 09, 2008 4:55 PM
The problem with Mishpacha , Yated and Hamodia is that they're always looking at the the "outsiders" problems and never focusing on the serious "Inside " frum issues .
I've stopped reading this trio because of their boring ,stylized articles and sanctimonious BS.
I've stopped reading this trio because of their boring ,stylized articles and sanctimonious BS.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 09, 2008 8:15 PM
: July 09, 2008 8:15 PM
I drank, got high, and hung out with girls in woodbourne (though innocently i must say) nearly every night during my summers upstate (this was 10 years ago (before all the crazies started trying to make it "kosher").. and i did all this with full time job (did this for 5 years or so). you should all know that kids will be kids and with time patience and tons of love they all find our way to where we belong.... I remember the rabbis and kiruv people only alienated us more (except for the breslov rabbi, may he be blessed, who gave out the calender, he was a tzaddik) and the people who we respected were just the genuinely nice people who looked at us with no judgments. Thank God i am far away from woodbourne(B"H living in Israel) today because you make it and other once fun places like kiamesha lanes sound like a boring, drab, unfun place that is further and further alienating beautiful, confused, well meaning, nice jewish boys and girls. You will all soon see that those who think that they have the "answers" to this crisis are only propagating it more and more. may we all be blessed to love more and judge less! Shabbat Shalom
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 10, 2008 5:44 PM
: July 10, 2008 5:44 PM
I lived that woodbourne life 15 yrs ago.Whoever wrote lashon hara about Neveh,will have alot to answer when his time is up.I can honestly say if it werent for neveh i would be dead-period.It has nothing to do with"woodbourne" or "bowling alleys".Talking to people from the heart is the only way to go.As a teacher for many years in schools with substance abuse,i can truly say some of these "people" who want to "cleanse"our youth are fools.it starts at home and in yeshiva.And most importantly it starts with a "relationship"with hashem.Only G-d can help.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 15, 2008 5:06 PM
: July 15, 2008 5:06 PM
please you people think you know what you are doing with these kids are just causing more issues. and everyone needs to stop with the parents there comes to a point in every parents life where the child does what they please anyways. at 17 years old what is a parent going to do? punish the kid? and all the wonderful "rabbis" from flatbush who decided that they are professionals when it comes to this and they are going to keep the boys and girls seperate congrats you FAILED. not only did you fail but you ruined things even more. now these girls are going back to these apts and doing things that would shock you. but wonderful job now that no one sees guys and girls talking makes everything better out of sight out of mind. none of you really care aobut these kids. you took somethign as simple as a bowling alley where guys and girls would hang out in public eye and you made it into the biggest deal ever so now no one sees them wonderful job. Every single teenage girl that went back to these guys apts and did drugs and only G-d knows what else that is on you.
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Comment Credit ---This article posted by : July 23, 2008 12:45 AM
: July 23, 2008 12:45 AM
